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| + | The '''Translation Corner''' is a place where a group of users can get together and help maintain the wiki by keeping it up to date on the actual translations of the various names, abilities, techniques and etc. found in the Bleach Universe. |
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| − | == Shinigami/Hollow hybrids == |
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| − | '''Note''': For the sake of convenience, within this discussion (and hopefully within the rest of this site in the future), ''Shinigami/Hollow'' includes the two current subtypes: |
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| − | :''Hollow-Shinigami'': Shinigami who have obtained Hollow powers, e.g. Visored. |
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| − | :''Shinigami-Hollow'': Hollows who have obtained Shinigami powers, e.g. Arrancar. |
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| + | ==Associate Members== |
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| − | === Hollow-Shinigami or Shinigami-Hollow? === |
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| + | *[[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] (Japanese) |
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| − | {{Discussion Closed|result=}} |
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| + | *[[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] (Japanese) |
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| − | I thought there was a crucial difference between "<u>Hollow-Shinigami hybrid</u>" and "<u>Shinigami-Hollow hybrid</u>", being that the first species name in each classification is the subject's original one. ''Or was Tousen somehow a Hollow all along?!'' [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 19:40, February 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | *[[User:Lia Schiffer|<span style="color: #008000;">'''Lia Schiffer'''</span>]] (Spanish) |
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| + | == References & Sources == |
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| − | If you read the SS arc when Aizen is explaining to Ichigo about Hollowfication and all that he used the term Shinigami-Hollow Hybrid to refer to his hollows whom he had been experimenting on. (CH 175, page 11) So the opposite Hollow-Shinigami hybrid is the one for Shinigami. I know its confusing It took time for me to wrap my head around it as well but thats what is said. [[User:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">'''Salubri'''</font>]] [[User talk:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">('''Talk''')</font>]] 20:53, February 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | [[Image:Folder_256.png|thumb|right|50px|[[Bleach Wiki:Translation Corner/Archive 1|Archive 1]]]] |
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| + | * Manga Raws: [http://mangahelpers.com/m/bleach/raws MangaHelpers] |
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| − | That's not what I got from Tinni on the Resurreccion talk page (see Section #13: Trivia of that page; it's still there), at least as far as the site's general policy towards "hybrid" terminology. And I've checked up on the chapter you mentioned; I think he too uses two different terms for each type. See [http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v20/c175/12.html here] and [http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v20/c175/13.html here]. My guess that he's differentiating between "Shinigami/Hollow" (The backslash seems to indicate interchangeability), "Hollow-Shinigami" (e.g. Vizards, Tousen), and "Shinigami-Hollow" (Arrancar, Metastacia [failed prototype]). [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 21:36, February 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | * Kanji-to-English: |
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| + | ** [http://tangorin.com/ Tangorin] |
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| − | Well Im not entirely sure what the situation your talking about with Tinni. What I do know is with the two examples you have given you still have to understand the context in which he as talking. The first one isn't really specific he is talking of power and first uses a a shinigami power system so that its understandable what he is talking about, as it is the only structured power system we know. He then says the only way is hollowfication apparently hollowficatio is what he means are is saying as you look at the * sign not the shinigami-hollow hybrid that we see. That seems a translation misstep, of course you'd know better then me. Thats what I get in any case. The other one is him specifically identifying in conversation that Shinigami-Hollow hybrid in reference to a hollow. He only interchanges with the understanding that both are aims of achieving greater then normal power. [[User:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">'''Salubri'''</font>]] [[User talk:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">('''Talk''')</font>]] 23:01, February 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| + | ** [http://www.mahou.org/Kanji/ Mahou Kanji Dictionary] |
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| + | ** [http://www.kanjinetworks.com/index.cfm Kanji Networks] |
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| − | The topic is still there on the Resurrecion article's talk page, so you can check it (as I said, it's under ''Section #13: Trivia''). And no, I don't really know any better than you. I'm just speculating that the first "Shinigami-Hollow hybrid" phrase is used by Aizen in a general context to include ''all'' hybrids of Shinigami and Hollow, regardless of what the original base was, before he goes on to describe the two primary ways to achieve the end result. That's why I figured using the backslash could help separate between the term's general and specific context, on grounds that the symbol would denote interchangeability of word order (i.e. Shinigami/Hollow = Hollow/Shinigami, but Shinigami-Hollow =/= Hollow-Shinigami). |
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| + | ** [http://oldnihongo.j-talk.com/parser/search/kanjisearch.php?search=paste OldNihongo.J-Talk.Com] |
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| − | And I somehow doubt that the * note indicates a "translation misstep"; if the translator(s) noticed it was an "error", and had the time to put a margin note to "notify" us, then why didn't he/she/they just fix the "error" in the first place? Seems more like the margin note is there to preempt (from the translator's POV) possible confusion as to what he means by "Shinigami-Hollow hybrid" (again, in the translator's POV). Of course, it could help if we had the raws for these pages. I seem to remember that "Hollowification" is specifically a term for the Visored's donning of their masks - "horoo-ka" (ホロー化, lit. "change/transformation into a Hollow") is used at least one anime episode title to mean "Hollowification" (if you haven't noticed already, I'm sorely handicapped by the lack of Bleach anime-manga localizations), and anime Mashiro specifically uses "horoo-kasuru" (ホロー化する, lit. "to change/transform into a Hollow") when she notices Love Aikawa's preparation to "hollowify" in self-defense against Hollow Ichigo's imminent Cero attack, so if we can confirm that the original wording in the first Chapter 175 page that mentioned above was indeed ホロー化... |
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| − | [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 23:59, February 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Well I read the other page and there seems to be some accurate statements mixed with some inaccurate ones though the discussion there is purely on trivia matters so thats somewhat off topic. But im referring to seeing Shinigami-Hollow Hybrid* and then seeing the Hollowfication. Im not certain of the context of that but in any case the point is that Tosen is basically named a Hollow-Shinigami hybrid on what Aizen says in the next portion. He specifically identifies his hollow experiments as Shinigami-Hollow Hybrids. I guess the idea is that base goes last. I cant really account for the first page you put up. Im just going by what he gives in specifics to that point which I do believe is the only time he specifically uses the terms in referring to either sub-species. Thats really all we have to go on. [[User:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">'''Salubri'''</font>]] [[User talk:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">('''Talk''')</font>]] 00:21, February 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | True. Which leads to another issue: I think we could use a "Shinigami/Hollow hybrids" article that briefly describes the concept behind the hybridization (as per Aizen's words, plus whatever bits info mentioned later on), briefly outlines the types of hybrids (with details left to the already existing articles) and Aizen's failed experiments ("zanpakutou-destroying" Metastacia, the "reiatsu-invisible" Hollows), as well as explaining the "correct" terminology for denoting specific types of hybrids on the site (to avoid the same confusion that I had made). we really need guidlines for that last issue, at the very least. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 00:34, February 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Ill see about working something out. It will require some searching through the manga to be accurate and mixing of existing pages to one point. But Ill come up with something. [[User:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">'''Salubri'''</font>]] [[User talk:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">('''Talk''')</font>]] 00:46, February 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Right. Discussion closed, I persume? [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 01:41, February 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | === Canonical terminology === |
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| − | I finally managed to acquire raw scans of the [http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/592/148?t=1266515729 two] [http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/592/149?t=1266516009 pages] that I had brought up in our "Hollow-Shinigami hybrid" discussion on [[Talk:Kaname Tōsen]], and confirmed that the original terms used by Aizen are as follows: |
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| − | *''Shinigami no Horoo-ka'' (死神の虚[ホロウ]化) - "Hollowfication of Shinigami". |
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| − | *''Horoo no Shinigami-ka'' (虚[ホロウ]の死神化) - "Shinigamification of Hollow(es)". |
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| − | Note: The kanji 化, when used as a suffix, is virtually equivalent in purpose and meaning to English "-ification". As we can see, the term "Shinigamification" ''is actually an official/canonical term'', contrary to original belief. |
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| − | Now, if someone can accurately translate the rest of Aizen's words... |
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| − | PS: In ''which'' specific chapter were the Arrancar's nature first explained as Shinigami-Hollow hybrids? I'm thinking of digging up the raws to compare the original terminology used. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 18:23, February 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Well thats interesting and new I'll have to talk to the other admin about what you have found, though it seems he didn't give an actual term to what such a being would be called but rather the process in creation. Using what you found cant be obviously used to describe a species. As far as the other stuff if you can find the chapter i will also ask Adam if he can check as well what the issue of Aizen's concept of the arrancar situation. [[User:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">'''Salubri'''</font>]] [[User talk:Salubri|<font color="4169E1" size="2px">('''Talk''')</font>]] 18:33, February 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | True, but it provides a canonical basis for "hybrid" classification. by Aizen's own admission, his experimental Hollowes are attempts (though failed) at combining Hollow and Shinigami, using the former as the basis; thus they could be included under a generic "Shinigami(fied)-Hollow hybrid" category, as well as the more successful Arrancar. On the other hand, "Hollow(ified)-Shinigami" would include the [[Vizards]], [[Ichigo Kurosaki]], and [[Kaname Tōsen]]; note that I separated the last two due to inherent differences from the first group: Ichigo is heavily speculated to be a more "perfect" version of what the Vizards had become, and whatever was done to Tōsen had obviously put him somewhere beyond them, too (Resurreccion isn't a standard Vizard power). |
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| − | BTW, MangaHelpers has ''loads'' of raws for both ''Bleach'' (and various other manga), so maybe it could serve as our primary quick source of raws. |
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| − | [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 20:13, February 18, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | If someone ''could'' give us specific chapter/page numbers, it would be <u>very</u> helpful. In this case the above prompted me to think of, too: I can't remember, but the full transformation of Pluses into Hollows--hasn't this ''also'' been referred to as '''Hollowfaction''' (虚(ホロウ)化)? And the Visored/Ichigo use it to refer to donning their masks, too, even though they don't *really* become Hollows? I can't remember. |
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| − | In Ch. 175 pg. 10 Aizen indeed calls it '''''Shinigami no Horouka''''' (死神の虚(ホロウ)化) "Hollowfaction of Shinigami" or "Shinigami (adj.) Hollowfaction (n.)," and on pg. 11 the opposite '''''Horouka no Shinigamika''''' (虚(ホロウ)の死神化) "Shinigamifaction of Hollows" or "Hollow Shinigamifaction," as '''Marq''' cites above. In the ch. where Hitsugaya tells Ichigo about the Menos classes (197), he refers to the Hollow > Shinigami transformation, though, as '''Arrancarifaction''' (破面(アランカル)化 ''Arankaruka''), and this is the only term directly related to the Arrancar I've seen (Aizen's reference was more vague). It may be worth noting that neither hybrid has shown to fully gain the powers of the other (e.g. Arrancar Zanpakutou don't have indwelling spirits, Visored don't *seem* to have ultra-fast regeneration)--special, yet-enigmatic cases like Tousen and Ichigo notwithstanding. |
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| − | Maybe it's best, again inspired by what '''Marq''' said, to refer to these canonically *by* the canon terms he cited, and then list Visored as the most prominent examples along the lines of Shinigami Hollowfaction, and Arrancar as the most along the lines of Hollow Shinigamifaction, but cite that the former call their abilities simply "Hollowfaction," while the shift from Hollow > Arrancar is often simply called "Arrancarifaction." |
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| − | If people think we *have* to make clearly still-Hollow experiments like Metastacia etc. into some kind of "hybrid" category, I guess we could. But I'd just class them as experiments as, like I said, they were clearly still Hollows, if with special abilities. They probably wouldn't even count as pseudo-Arrancar like Grand Fisher, though. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 10:24, April 7, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | It's ''Hollow'''fication'''''/''Arrancar'''ification''''' (''-fy'' / ''-fication''; the ''i'' is added when preceded by a consonant), not ''Hollow'''faction'''''/''Arrancar'''ifaction'''''. |
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| − | If what you say about '''Arrancarification''' is true, then it seems my personal pet theory has been proven true: That Arrancar are ''not'' actual hybrids, but merely the Hollow counterpart to Shinigami. |
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| − | # By definition, a Shinigami/Hollow hybrid should be able to use the abilities that are characterisitic of each "race". |
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| − | # The Visored definitely fit the bill, since they are able to use their Zanpakutou ''and'' can use Kidou (Hachigen is the only example I can think of right now), and can use Cero while donning their Hollow Masks, while at least Ichigo has also proven that Sonido is usable by a Visored, though he only demonstrated it in his new, Resurreccion-like Hollow Form. If Resurreccion is possible for Visored (Tousen notwithstanding), then perhaps their use of Sonido is restricted to that form, though that's all speculation. |
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| − | ## [[User:Adam Restling | Adam Restling]] and [[User:Salburi | Salburi]], in a rely to a query by [[User:Minato88 | Minato88]] [http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Minato88/Archive_2#You_said_you_were_confused_about_Tousen.27s_Resurrecion.3F here] have suggested that, among other things (like the the "opposition-relationship" between Shinigami, Hollows and Hybrids), the relationship between a Visored and their inner Hollow may be the inverse of that between a Shinigami and their Zanpakutou, which begins with understanding (learning their name/Shikai), and is followed with subjugation (learning Bankai). In other words, they have to first dominate it (The Visored/Ichigo acquiring their Mask-donning ability), and then somehow "accept"/"understand" it (Ichigo's New Hollow Form? Resurreccion?). Depending on future events, this might explain why Cero is the only true Hollow ability in the Visored's arsenal. |
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| − | # However, the Arrancar are an anomaly in this regard: About the only powers they have that comes close to being Shinigami-derived are their Zanpakutou, Sonido (vs. Shunpo) and Cero/Bala (vs. Hadou), and even those are both radically different in their underlying principle and are, in the latter two cases, usable by non-Arrancarified Menos (Grimmjow's Fraccion "instant movement" to bow in front of him during their first meeting seems similar to Sonido). Even Edrad Liones declares that an Arrancar's zanpakutou is the complete opposite to a Shinigami's own. |
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| − | # And then comes Toushirou's words: He says ''Arrancarification'', not ''Shinigamification'', implying that the two processes have inherently different results. |
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| − | I thus ask this question: If the Visored use true Hollow abilities in addition to their original Shinigami powers, and yet Arrancar do not use ''any'' Shinigami abilities, then how can either one be the "antithesis" of the other? It seems to me that Arrancar are actually ''the antithesis of '''Shinigami''''', and the only actual hybrids until now are the Visored, Ichigo and Tousen (the last two may or may not be Visored-type hybrids). Perhaps one needs to have either Shinigami powers or the potential to do so to become a hybrid; has it been stated that a Plus that has dormant Shinigami powers lose them upon turning into a Hollow? [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 11:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I don't have much time now, so some quick comments: |
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| − | I use '''-fy/-faction''' on the basis of ''putrefy : putrefaction'', ''petrify : petrifaction'', which implement the same Latin forms, because I wanted the syllabification (< there I used it XD) to better match the Japanese morae. Ho-rou-ka : Hol-low-fy/fac-tion (I only save one syllable on the latter from ''-fication'' but I figured, hey, why use a longer form if the shorter ''-faction'' is available?). |
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| − | Arrancar do seem to get most shortchanged in their hybridization. More later :). [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 12:00, April 7, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | ==Zanpakutō== |
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| − | === The imperative inflection of Japanese verbs === |
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| − | Since I see some confusion lingering on these, I thought a (*hopefully*) quick guide on them could help. This is related to, and for a greater part duplicates, my post [[Talk:Resurrección#The_imperative_inflection_of_Japanese_verbs | here]] in the other place where the imperative conjugation is involved. I thought it wise to post one in both places because, though related, the two topics aren't ''immediately'' apprehensible to the browser as being related. |
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| − | As in many other languages, Japanese verbs inflect to reflect [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood '''mood'''], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_tense '''tense'''] etc. The moods that concern us most with both Shinigami and Arrancar Zanpakutou release calls are the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood#Indicative '''indicative'''] and the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood#Imperative '''imperative''']. |
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| − | Most Zanpakutou release calls are in the imperative mood: the wielder is commanding the Zanpakutou to manifest in its normal, unsealed form with the call. The form the inflection takes also depends upon what ''kind'' of verb it is: '''consonant-stem''', '''vowel-stem''', or '''irregular'''. |
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| − | Though the only consonant Japanese words can end with in modern times is ''n'', the verbal stem, ''being'' a stem and not a true, full word, is analyzed as ending in a consonant before it receives the appropriate suffix. '''Please note''' also that some consonant-stems are hard to tell from identical looking vowel-stems--e.g. some verbs ending in ''-ru'' are the former, some the latter--and these should be looked up individually. Also, some verbs which ostensibly end in a vowel, such as ''iu'' "say, speak," are classed as consonant-stems, with the consonant manifesting as a ''w'' < ''u'' in derived forms, such as the negative ''i<u>w</u>anai'' "not say/speak" (stem ''iw-'' + negative consonant-stem verbal suffix ''-anai''). |
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| − | For consonant-stem verbs, the imperative is formed by adding ''-e'' to the stem |
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| − | ex: Momo Hinamori's ''hajike'', imperative of ''hajiku'' (stem ''hajik-'') "snap, flip" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitive_verb (transitive)] |
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| − | For vowel-stem verbs, the imperative is forming by adding ''-ro'' to the stem |
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| − | ex. Aizen's ''kudakero'', imperative of ''kudakeru'' (stem ''kudake-'') "break" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intransitive_verb (intransitive)] |
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| − | For irregular verbs the forms are, as the name suggests, irregular: |
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| − | ''kuru'' "come" forms its imperative in ''koi''; its stem, though, is usually ''ki-'' |
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| − | ''suru'' "do" (also used to make nouns, especially foreign-derived nouns, into verbs, e.g. ''aisuru'' "love" [verb] < ''ai'' "love" [noun]) forms its imperative as either ''shiro'' or ''seyo'' (cf. the release call of Tatsufusa Enjouji's [[Tatsufusa_Enjōji#Zanpakut.C5.8D | Houzan]], ''ranbu seyo'' "dance madly" [''ran'' "wild, mad, crazed" + ''bu'' dance + ''seyo'']); its stem is usually ''shi-'' |
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| − | There are some exceptions to these rules amongst the Shinigami. One of the most notable is Shunsui Kyouraku's [[Shunsui_Kyōraku#Zanpakut.C5.8D | '''Katen Kyoukotsu''']], whose release call includes verbs in the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerund gerund] (''midarete'' "swirling/swirl[s]" < ''midareru'' "swirl, churn, be in disorder or chaos"), the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitive infinitive] (''naki'' "singing/sing[s]" < ''naku'' "sing; make a sound [animals]"), and plain present indicative (''warau'' "laugh[s]"). However, most seem to use the imperative. |
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| − | '''Please note''' also that Japanese, being the language of a society in which social class and formal mien is deeply engrained, also has many levels of usage for words, including verbs, depending upon whether one is amongst friends in a casual environment, or with a superior etc. (cf. how in English, you probably wouldn't call the big boss "dude!" XD). In Japanese, thus, usage of the plain forms of words is considered informal and, ''especially'', the plain ''imperative'' or command forms are considered quite rude--commands in a society that so-values politeness are unsurprisingly prickly. However, most/all the Zanpakutou release calls we have so far are in the plain imperative (or indicative) forms. Perhaps a subtle nod to the informal and intimate relationship one shares with its wielder (at least for Shinigami)... ? |
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| − | At any rate, it's those plain forms I've discussed above. If you've any questions, please let me know either [[User_talk:Adam_Restling | here]], or in replies to this very topic section. |
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| − | '''EDIT''': Sorry, I realized that when referring to a "flower wind," ''midarete'' is better translated "swirling," like flurries of snow or wind, then it is by "churning" :) . Since either may refer to turbid confusion or roiling activity, what was being so described should dictate which of the semi-synonymous verbs is used. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 11:03, March 27, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | ==Resurreccións== |
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| − | === Resurrección translations. === |
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| − | {{Discussion Closed| the Proper Kanji and Translations have been provided}} |
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| − | The Japanese Kanji for Ulquiorra's second Resurrección, as well as Tousen's Resurrección, both translate as "Swords Release" rather than "Returning Blade" in the case of the usual Resurrección. Meaning there is a difference. |
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| − | This info should be on both the Resurrección and Tousen Pages. It's on Uquiorra's page, but it isn't pointed out clear enough. |
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| − | Go check the RAW manga pages yourself. This is not speculation. You seem to be to lazy to check yourself so why are you assuming I don't check my facts? |
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| − | 帰刃 - return blade |
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| − | レスレクシオン - Resurrección |
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| − | 刀剣解放第二階層 - sword release second level |
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| − | レスレクシオン・セグンダ・エターパ - Resurrección Segunda Etapa |
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| − | 刀剣解放 - sword release |
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| − | レスレクシオン - Resurrección |
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| − | Retrieved from "http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Salubri" |
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| − | [[User:Tari101190|Tari101190]] 20:58, December 11, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | '''Tari''' is correct, as I also noted in one of my posts to '''Minato''' yesterday. An excerpt: |
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| − | It's also worth noting that whereas most times, '''Resurrección''' (帰刃 (レスレクシオン) ''Resurekushion'') has the underlying kanji "return blade," when Tousen says "Resurrección" in this ch. 385, the underlying kanji are "sword release" (刀剣解放 (レスレクシオン))--exactly as they were in the underlying kanji of Ulquiorra's '''Resurrección (Segunda Etapa)'''! |
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| − | For the full post and details: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Minato88#You_said_you_were_confused_about_Tousen.27s_Resurrecion.3F |
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| − | As '''Tari''' and I pointed out, the normal underlying kanji of '''Resurrección''' is changed from "return blade" to "sword release" when used for Ulquiorra's '''Resurrección Segunda Etapa''' ''and'' Tousen's special hybrid/"Visored" '''Resurrección'''. Not sure how you'd want to note this in the actual "Resurrección" article itself, but it is interesting, and so probably worth some explanation in that article. |
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| − | As for being "lazy," '''Tari''', I doubt it's the case. Some don't have access to the necessary linguistic resources or data/guide web sites, and even if they do, they may fall victim to mistakes or misinformation some of the less-accurate of such resources abound in--especially if they lack the background in Japanese to be able to tell what's correct. I sometimes have trouble finding raws, as many of them must be acquired through the hassle of downloads and perusal of hundreds of pages of manga (since tankoubon and other arrangements can affect page # etc.). We that can, or have an easier time with it, do <u>because</u> we can, even if parts of the quest can be taxing. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 06:42, December 12, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | Thanks Adam, this is significant enough that it should be noted in the trivia section. What it means if anything is anyone guess, but more or less the meaning of resurreccion may have changed for all we know. Whats interesting to note is that japanese writing uses kanji which are ideographs from chinese characters. While they are both different in the word resurreccion as you have noted the katakana is still the same for both. Weird even though i already know kanji signifys nouns, adjectives, verbs and japanese names while katakana is just used for syllables and foreign names and words as well as animals, plants and what have you. [[User:Salubri|<font color="cyan" size="2px">'''Salubri'''</font>]] [[User talk:Salubri|<font color="cyan" size="2px">('''Talk''')</font>]] 06:53, December 12, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ===Kaname Tosen's Resurreccion=== |
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| − | {{Discussion Closed| result=Kaname's entire Resurreccion is "Suzumushi Hyakushiki, Grillar Grillo"}} |
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| − | The spanish translation for Grillar Grillo means "coruscating cricket," so why is it that it says "Bell Cricket, Hundred Style." [[User:Gekkōhire|'''月光ヒレ''']] 02:09, December 12, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | See [[Talk:Kaname_Tōsen]]. [[User:Twocents|<span style="color: #4B0082;">'''Twocents'''</span>]] [[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Twocents|<span style="font-size:95%; color: #4B0082;">(Talk)</span>]] 02:11, December 12, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | Just one quick addendum: the underlying kanji of ''Grillar Grillo'' in the present article were accidentally placed in the column for "release command" together with ''Suzumushi Hyakushiki.'' The way it should be is: |
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| − | ''column: Release command'' |
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| − | '''Suzumushi Hundred-Style''' (清虫百式 ''Suzumushi Hyakushiki'') |
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| − | ''column: Resurrección'' |
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| − | '''Grillar Grillo''' (狂枷蟋蟀 (グリジャル・グリージョ) ''Gurijaru Gurījo'') |
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| − | ''column: Spanish for'' |
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| − | "Chirping Cricket" |
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| − | ''column: Japanese for'' |
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| − | "Crazed-shackle Cricket" |
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| − | In the above, you may translate ''Suzumushi'' as ''Bell Cricket'', or keep it as ''Suzumushi'' (since it's his Zanpakutou's name). Lemme know what you choose. For more details (if wanted), still check here: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Minato88#You_said_you_were_confused_about_Tousen.27s_Resurrecion.3F |
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| − | Of course, we have no idea if ''Suzumushi Hyakushiki'' <u>is</u> the release call, or if it's just the preface to the release's actual name. Tousen has always been an odd bird like this. For example, you'd think Suzumushi's release call to Shikai was "chime" (''nake''), but that seemed less like a release and more like the command to send out that hypersonic wave that knocked out Ishida. And then he says "Suzumushi Nishiki: Benihikou" to perform one move, and then "Suzumushi Tsuishiki: Enma Koorogi" to release his Bankai. But, until we get better data, it's probably safe to keep calling "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" the (''de facto'') release command. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 07:02, December 12, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | Can't we all assume that Tosen's release command for his Resurreccion is the exact same for his Shikai: ''Cry''' (鳴け, nake). |
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| − | [[User:Superlogan7437|superlogan7437]] 23:35, December 15, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | We can't really assume that since he has only said "Suzumushi Hyakushiki-- Grillar Grillo". He did not necessarily command for the release, he immediately released it. "Suzumushi Hyakushiki, Grillar Grillo" is the name of the release, but no part of it is the actual command. --[[User:Gold3263301|Gold3263301]] 00:52, December 16, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | In my own personal opinion, I don't think the release command should be Suzumushi Hyakushiki. If you think about it, it is very irregular for a release command to be a noun (which Suzumushi Hyakushiki is one). It might be an exception, but I wouldn't state the release command to be "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" just yet unless it is absolutely made sure that it is an exception due to "special" conditions. --[[User:Gold3263301|Gold3263301]] 00:59, December 16, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :It doesn't matter what we think guys. Whether we like it or not, or whether its sounds right or not doesn't matter. He used "''Suzumushi Hyakushiki''" as his release command. Noun, Verb, Adjective, it doesn't matter. Kanames commands and fighting abilities have been weird ever since his fight with Kenpachi. Anyway, until we have reason to believe otherwise, "''Suzumushi Kyakushiki''" remains his release command. [[User:Minato88|<span style="color: #FFD700;">'''Minato'''</span>]][[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Minato88|<span style="font-size:95%; font-family: courier new; color: #FFD700;">(Talk)</span>]] 01:10, December 16, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ===Baraggan, Findor Carias, Ggio Vega and Poww's Resurreccións, (possible) mistakes === |
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| − | 1. "滅亡の斧" does not translate into "Downfallen Axe"; rather, it translates into "Axe of Extinction". It both makes more sense than the original "translation" and fits with his Grim Reaper theme. |
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| − | 2. The pronunciations ''Pinzagūda'' and ''Tiguresutōku'' makes me think that the intended Roman-letter spelling is '''Pinzaguda''' and '''Tigrestoque''', not '''Pinza Aguda''' and '''Tigre Estoque''' , since that last ones should logically be pronounced ''Pinza Agūda'' and ''Tiguru Esutōku''. |
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| − | 3. The kanji gloss given for Calderón, 巨腕鯨, literally translate to ''giant'' (巨), ''arm'' (腕) and ''whale'' (鯨), respectively, so I'd say that the entire kanji name is supposed to mean "Giant Armed Whale", or "Armed Giant Whale"/"Gigantic Armed Whale" (to avoid confusion with "Giant-Armed Whale"). If "Giant Whale's Arms" was the intended meaning, then it should've been 巨'''鯨腕''', not 巨'''腕鯨'''. |
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| − | [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 02:16, March 3, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque are alright the way they are. Remember that Arrancar Resurreccions are based off on Spanish words, in this case Sharp Pincer and Tiger Rapier respectively, whereas your suggested Pinzaguda and Tigrestoque are not spanish words. Romanization is a complicated matter, if we went directly with the Katakana, Szayel's name would be Zaeruapolo instead of Szayel Aporro. There are different ways of interpreting Katakana and Hiragana, depending on the context and the mangaka, you shouldn't really take the kana's so literally. [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 03:03, March 3, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I know all that. But I was thinking that maybe Kubo put the pronunciations that way to give us a hint that the names are supposed to be portmanteaux (in the Resurreccion's case) / composite names (in Szayel's case, i.e. "Szayel-Apporo", kinda like many [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_name French] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_naming_customs Spanish] given names). [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 03:15, March 3, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | It's difficult to say, but for those specific Resurreccions, their names are said in two parts in the anime. The idea of Kubo using portmanteaux is interesting, and it is quite a coincidence that the only two Zanpakuto that follow that contain two words (pronouns excluded) follow that pattern. Unlike Arrancar names, Kubo's never spelled out a Resurreccion's name in plain English, so it's hard to say. [[User:Mohrpheus|Mohrpheus]] 01:19, March 5, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | '''Update''': added Barragan's Gran Caida. |
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| − | I have those two parts, and the pronunciation used supports my arugment. I think that's enough justification to alter the spelling for now, until an official one is actually given; don't you think? |
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| − | And is it just me, or is everyone pointedly ignoring the part about Calderón? [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 21:25, March 5, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I don't understand your point on Gran Caida. Are you arguing pronunciation or meaning? And I didn't touch your point about Calderón because I'm not well-versed in Kanji interpretation, so there was nothing I could add onto that, I just went fair straight to Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque, and again I'm strongly sure that they're meant to stay as separate words. It wouldn't be the first time a zanpakuto has long name, take Katen Kyokotsu or Sogyo no Kotowari. And many Arrancar attacks and techniques have long names, take Lanzador Verde, Ola Azul, Cero Oscuras, Lanza del Relámpago, to name a few. I'm a natural Spanish speaker, let's leave the Spanish words the way they are instead of trying to tweak them based on Romanization that has proved to be tricky more than once. That's my opinion on the matter. [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 03:28, March 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I fail to see how my point on ''Gran Caida'' concerns its pronunciation when it's revolving completely around the kanji. And you could just consult Wiktionary or any available online Japanese translator; I recommend Tangorin.com, which also has a dedicated forum. |
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| − | On another note, while I wouldn't argue about your examples, there's a simple fact that you're missing (aside from the other fact that ''none'' of their pronunciations even suggest that they are intended to be portmanteaux): In virtually all Hollow/Arrancar ability/Zanpakutou multiple-word names, whenever the words are supposed to be separate, there's an '''interpunct''' (・) that separates the relevant kana. The only exceptions to that involve definite articles in the beginning of the name, such as ''Los Lobos'' and ''Del Toro'', which Tite Kubo seems to have decided to treat as part of the word they are affixed to (personally, I think that's a plausible approach). ''Pinzagūda'' and ''Tiguresutōku'' do not have interpuncts separating any of their kana, in addition to the whole pronunciation thing. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 11:24, March 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | '''Gran Caida''' is more contentious, as the genitive particle ''no'' is also used extensively to form adjectives from nouns (cf. the discussion on '''Sode no Shirayuki'''). Thus, while more *literally* "'''axe of downfall/ruin'''", the kanji can <u>also</u> mean "'''downfall(en)/ruin(ed)''' (adj.) '''axe''' (noun)," and there's no way save from Kubo we can confirm exactly which was meant. 滅 ''metsu'' can stand for either "ruin, fell (something)" or passive "''be'' ruined, fall down, a downfall"; 滅亡 ''metsubou'' means "downfall, ruin," and seems generally to be passive "a being ruined/felled." |
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| − | The kanji of '''Calderón''' as "'''giant-armed whale'''" is correct, based on their order you cited. |
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| − | Though '''Tigre'''~ should be Japanese ''Tigure'', you're right that Kubo goofs these (e.g. ''Cero <u>Doble</u>'' where it should be Japanese ''Dobure'' but Kubo writes ''Doburu''). His lack of an interpunct in these is odd, because as was said above, it *should* really be ''Pinza Aguda'' and ''Tigre Estoque'', and Kubo usually saves his "portmanteaux" for the wacky ''Hollow'' names. Difficult to tell. I would elect to keep them as is, just as I would to keep the spelling of Arturo Plateado's sword, even though Kubo wrote it as though it were Spanish ''Feniche''. Besides, I don't think there are words like *''Guda'' and *''Stoque'' existing in real Spanish, so if we smashed the renderings together as *''Pinzaguda'' and ''Tigrestoque'', we'd have produced nonsensical pseudo-words while, again, Kubo mainly sticks to real (if sometimes misspelled) Spanish--at least for Hollow swords and techniques. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 10:15, March 25, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I don't think the context allows for the kanji to mean '''Downfallen/Ruined Axe'''; I mean, the axe itself doesn't look decreipt or something, right? And 滅亡 ''metsubou'' does mean "extinction" in addition to "downfall, ruin, destruction". Aren't we supposed to go with the choice that is most plausible/sensible in the absence of other evidence? |
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| − | Re. Doble: Wow, I never knew that. This puts things in a slightly new perspective. |
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| − | Re. Arturo Plateado: Is ''Feniche'' even a word? Boy, either Kubo's taking a little too much artistic license or he has worse knowledge of Spanish than I thought. BTW, how did you guys come to conclusion that it should be spelled ''Fénix''? [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 11:53, March 25, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Well, Baraggan's release call is "'''rot'''" (intransitive), i.e. <u>not</u> "rot ''something''," but commanding one to "rot" itself. And he turns into a desiccated skeleton. So I think "'''downfallen/ruined axe'''" is more appropriate, because it epitomizes Baraggan and his weapon as the great specter of the ruin that looks like has struck him (his own decayed-looking body) and which will then be ''spread'' ('''Respira''', anyone?) upon his foes like a pestilence: they will join him in "ruin." ''Metsubou'' is not glossed "extinction" with any currency; "extinction" is usually glossed for ''danzetsu'', ''haizetsu'', ''shoutou'', ''inmetsu'' or ''zetsumetsu''--though the last two indeed include ''metsu'', the compound ''metsubou'' ([be] destroy[ed]-die) itself is usually used of something's disastrous collapse or ruin (intransitive/passive), as I said earlier. |
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| − | ''Fenic(h)e'' does not seem to be a real Spanish word. They chose '''Fénix''' "phoenix" on this site and Wikipedia because of a) the underlying kanji 不滅王 "'''undying/indestructible king'''" (the phoenix is immortal by resurrecting itself--and yes, that is 滅 ''metsu'' again in 不滅 ''fumetsu'' "not-being destroyed"), b) his Resurreccion includes wings (the phoenix was a mythic bird), and c) there is no current Spanish word *''Fenic(h)e'' and so Kubo's phonetic rendering ''Fenīche'' was taken as an error. |
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| − | This last point is of no great controversy, as examples like ''Doble'' above show. Compare also Kubo's phonetic rendering of Harribel's technique '''Cascada'''. Though based on Spanish ''cascada'', this is pronounced (roughly) "kahs-KAH-dah," whereas Kubo's katakana spelling カスケーダ ''Kasukēda'' has apparently blended the pronunciation with the English cognate ''cascade'' (roughly "kas-KAYD"), with the ''-kē-'' part sounding almost like "kay," not Spanish "kah." Not to mention, say, rendering Spanish ''Quinto (Espada)'' as ''Kuinto'' when the Spanish word begins not with the sound ''kw'' but ''k''--this last also shows Kubo's mixing of Spanish genders (''quinto'' is masculine "fifth" while ''espada'' "sword" is classed a feminine noun). [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 03:44, March 26, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Just a little word on Fénix/Feniche. Feniche means Phoenix in Italian, but the Italian pronunciation would be roughly Feh-nee-keh (though, just like Nnoitra's Quinto, we know how much Kubo minds pronunciations) . So it means the same as Fénix in Spanish. And the words "Guda" and "Stoque" don't really exist in Spanish (that's what I've been trying to say all the way, for the love of Ulqui...) [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 04:05, March 26, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Makes sense. And again, while we know Kubo massively distorts and stylizes real words/names to produce the exotic, single-language-transcending names of his Hollows and Arrancar, he sticks to real Spanish (mispronounced/misgendered though it may be) for their techniques and stuff, so it wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly, say, go ''Italiano'' on a word or two. The lack of interpuncts and mashing-together of the words is odd. My best explanation is that Kubo tried to "cheat," since the first words of each technique name <u>end</u> in the same vowel that the second words <u>begin</u> with: thus '''Pinza Aguda''' gets "shorthanded" > ''Pinsagūda'' instead of ''Pins'''a'''・'''A'''gūda'', and '''Tigre Estoque''' likewise > ''Tigurestōku'' instead of ''Tigur'''e'''・'''E'''sutōku''--note, of course, that the rendering of ''-que'' as katakana ''-ku'' here is another mistake, as the closer-to-Spanish rendering would be ''-ke''. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 05:08, March 26, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I keep getting "extinction" as a possible translation for either "滅亡" or "''metsubou''" whenever I google them; maybe it's figurative. In any case, if ''Downfallen'' was actually referring to Baraggan, then it could've made sense, but it refers to the weapon that he uses in his Resurreccion form. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 10:40, March 26, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Then mayhaps the more ostensible meaning of ''no''--the genitive rather than the adjectival--is best, sic. "'''Axe <u>of</u> Ruin/Downfall'''." After all, Gran Caida's purpose against enemies, especially in line with Baraggan's theme of decay, is to "fell" his foes, even as Respira is to rot and "ruin" them. In light of these considerations, I would recommend the translation "'''Axe of Ruin'''." And that's odd, '''Marq''': the first [http://www.eudict.com/?lang=japeng&word=metsubou hit] I got when I [http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=metsubou&btnG=Google+Search googled ''metsubou''] indeed gives it as "downfall, ruin," as does my usual, trustworthy Japanese-English online translator and my copy of [http://www.amazon.com/Original-Readers-Japanese-English-Character-Dictionary/dp/0804819653/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269750649&sr=1-1 Nelson's ''The Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary'']. I don't know why you keep getting "extinction/destruction" as the sense with primacy, rather than as a secondary, broader sense. But, then, I suppose any word with a meaning having to do with "destruction" could be construed to have this broader sense or that narrower sense without much ado. However, really, the general usage of ''metsubou'' is for specifically "downfall, ruin," with other words (cf. my list above) being used, similarly specifically, for "extinction." [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 04:38, March 28, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | '''Axe of Ruin'''' it is, then. Now, do we have to wait for a mod to second this suggestion, or what? [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 07:17, March 28, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Not usually; you two know a lot more about this than the rest of us, so imo I think we can trust you to do things like this without our say-so.TomServo101 11:25, March 28, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | === Murcielago's release command, alternate interpetation === |
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| − | While "鎖す" (''tozasu'') does translate literally as "bind", I recently found another possible meaning for it, via the synonymous ''and'' homophonous 閉ざす (''tozasu'') (source: Tangorin.com, and confirmed by Google search results). While the latter also has the same literal meaning, it also acts as an Japanese idiomatic phrase meaning "(to) plunge (in grief)". |
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| − | I always thought it was odd that Ulquiorra's release command seemingly did not have even a remote relevance to his zanpakutou's name, its powers or himself. In light of the above, however, it all becomes more sensible: The reveal of his ''Resurreccion'''s "true" form, the Segunda Etapa, is preceded by him saying that he'll show Ichigo "true '''despair'''" - essentially "plunging" Ichigo into "grief" as he realizes the hopelessness of opposing Ulquiorra. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 22:05, March 23, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Ulquiorra's release command was matter for discussion since it first came out in the manga, since the verb Tozasu can be translated as "to close, to lock, to enchain", and the Cnet translation was actually Enchain, but I'm not really sure as to why we kept Bind as the official translation, check Ulquiorra's discussion page. But the one you're proposing uses a different writing than the one used by Tite Kubo, and since this is so far a written manga and not a spoken anime, the fact that they're homophones is not really relevant, but the writing is very different, so I doubt that's what Kubo intended to be the release command. [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 03:46, March 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I wouldn't have bothered if it was only a homophone, but it is both that and a ''synonym''. Everywhere I checked, the two kanji's verb forms have the same pronunciation ''and'' the same meaning of "bind, enchain, shackle". This reminded me of how some kanji burrowed pronunciations and/or meanings from others, and makes me suspect that we are faced with a similar case. It may be that Kubo decided to use a less common kanji for the verb instead of the usual one. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 10:36, March 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :We will only use what Kubo wrote, no matter how odd it may seem to anyone. Since he wrote 鎖せ (this article and his character article give the kanji as 鎖せ, not 鎖す as you say above), we will use that and its translation. Nothing else. And as to the oddness of the word, Ulquiorra says something about sealing away Ichigo's life just before boring a hole through his chest [http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/21/]. --[[User:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">'''Yyp'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">('''Talk''')</span>]]</sup> 10:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :: Like [[User:Adam Restling|Adam]] says in the post below, 鎖せ is the imperative form of 鎖す, so I'm still using what Kubo wrote. What is at issue here is the intended meaning. I don't see what "sealing" has to do with "binding", or how Ulquiorra's comment is relevant to the release command. All he did was use a Cero Oscuras; at least Zommari's Amor "suppressed" his enemies' control of their body parts, and Szayel's "sip" command easily pertain to the rather disturbing way he releases his zanpakutou. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 12:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Yes, when read ''tozasu'', these are interchangeable. If it were up to me, I would translate it "'''enclose'''" because--though no single word can cover both the ostensible meaning "close, shut" <u>and</u> "plunge (someone) in grief," I think "enclose" comes closest to the original ''and'' the figurative (i.e. grief/despair enveloping someone, suffocating them, as might the black wings of the devil ;) ). But, for the above reasons, I ''wouldn't'' just use "envelop" as that's too far from "close, shut," etc. So I would do ''tozasu'' (imperative form ''tozase'') as "'''enclose'''." [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 11:19, March 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :Exactly. Translating it as ''enclose'' does work too. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 12:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | === The imperative inflection of Japanese verbs === |
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| − | Since I see some confusion lingering on these, I thought a (*hopefully*) quick guide on them could help. I plan to put a copy of this post in the other place where the imperative conjugation is involved, the '''Zanpakutou''' talk page. |
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| − | As in many other languages, Japanese verbs inflect to reflect [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood '''mood'''], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_tense '''tense'''] etc. The moods that concern us most with both Shinigami and Arrancar Zanpakutou release calls are the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood#Indicative '''indicative'''] and the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood#Imperative '''imperative''']. |
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| − | Most Zanpakutou release calls are in the imperative mood: the wielder is commanding the Zanpakutou to manifest in its normal, unsealed form with the call. The form the inflection takes also depends upon what ''kind'' of verb it is: '''consonant-stem''', '''vowel-stem''', or '''irregular'''. |
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| − | Though the only consonant Japanese words can end with in modern times is ''n'', the verbal stem, ''being'' a stem and not a true, full word, is analyzed as ending in a consonant before it receives the appropriate suffix. '''Please note''' also that some consonant-stems are hard to tell from identical looking vowel-stems--e.g. some verbs ending in ''-ru'' are the former, some the latter--and these should be looked up individually. Also, some verbs which ostensibly end in a vowel, such as ''iu'' "say, speak," are classed as consonant-stems, with the consonant manifesting as a ''w'' < ''u'' in derived forms, such as the negative ''i<u>w</u>anai'' "not say/speak" (stem ''iw-'' + negative consonant-stem verbal suffix ''-anai''). |
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| − | For consonant-stem verbs, the imperative is formed by adding ''-e'' to the stem |
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| − | ex: Ulquiorra's ''tozase'', imperative of ''tozasu'' (stem ''tozas-'') "enclose, close, shut" |
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| − | For vowel-stem verbs, the imperative is forming by adding ''-ro'' to the stem |
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| − | ex. Yammy's ''buchikirero'', imperative of ''buchikireru'' (stem ''buchikire-'') (colloquial) "be(come) enraged, flip out, fly off the handle, lose it (one's temper)" |
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| − | For irregular verbs the forms are, as the name suggests, irregular: |
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| − | ''kuru'' "come" forms its imperative in ''koi''; its stem, though, is usually ''ki-'' |
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| − | ''suru'' "do" (also used to make nouns, especially foreign-derived nouns, into verbs, e.g. ''aisuru'' "love" [verb] < ''ai'' "love" [noun]) forms its imperative as either ''shiro'' or ''seyo'' (cf. the release call of Tatsufusa Enjouji's [[Tatsufusa_Enjōji#Zanpakut.C5.8D | Houzan]], ''ranbu seyo'' "dance madly" [''ran'' "wild, mad, crazed" + ''bu'' dance + ''seyo'']); its stem is usually ''shi-'' |
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| − | '''Please note''' also that Japanese, being the language of a society in which social class and formal mien is deeply engrained, also has many levels of usage for words, including verbs, depending upon whether one is amongst friends in a casual environment, or with a superior etc. (cf. how in English, you probably wouldn't call the big boss "dude!" XD). In Japanese, thus, usage of the plain forms of words is considered informal and, ''especially'', the plain ''imperative'' or command forms are considered quite rude--commands in a society that so-values politeness are unsurprisingly prickly. However, most/all the Zanpakutou release calls we have so far are in the plain imperative (or indicative) forms. Perhaps a subtle nod to the informal and intimate relationship one shares with its wielder (at least for Shinigami)... ? |
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| − | At any rate, it's those plain forms I've discussed above. If you've any questions, please let me know either [[User_talk:Adam_Restling | here]], or in replies to this very topic section. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 11:03, March 27, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | '''EDIT''': I realized this is probably also of importance. Japanese phonology is arranged into the so-called '''''Gojuuon''''' ("fifty sounds"). I believe it goes in the order, by horizontal column, with the vowels ''a, i, u, e, o'' first. Then, each vertical column, beneath these, features the vowel of the top column combined with an initial consonant (e.g. one column is ''ka, ki, ku, ke, ko'' etc.). Other entries in the ''Gojuuon'' are included for things like the final nasal ''n''. |
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| − | With this underlying system, Japanese analyzes the consonants as the same underlying '''phoneme''' (basic sound value), despite how it may come to be pronounced '''phonetically''' based on surrounding elements. That is to say, even though the consonant ''t'' is pronounced "ch" in front of the vowel ''i'', and "ts" in front of the vowel ''u'', Japanese analyzes all three of these pronunciations as merely '''allophones''' ("other-sounds") of one basic consonant, '''''t'''''--just as English considers the ''t'' in ''tip'' and the ''t'' in ''station'' both to be the letter ''t'', though the former remains "t" and the latter is shifted by surrounding sounds/factors to sound like "sh." |
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| − | Thus, the infinitive of the verb ''katsu'' "win" (''kat + u'' > ''ka-tsu'') is not pronounced *''katsi'' or *''kati'', but ''kachi'' (< ''kat + i''), and the stem ''-t-'' is evidenced in the negative form ''katanai'' "not win." |
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| − | The same thing causes underlying ''s'''s pronunciation to shift to "sh", as in ''kaesu'' "return (something)," infinitive ''kaeshi''. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 11:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | ===Harribel's release call: "Attack" or "Destroy"?=== |
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| − | Has it been officially established that Tiburon's release command is "attack"? I read the translation by Ju-ni and they translated her command as "destroy" in two instances: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/354/19/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/355/13/ . Would someone who knows about this like to check it out? Thanks. [[User:Benihime101|Benihime101]] 05:09, March 25, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Cnet says it's destroy as well (on both occasions). Since we have the two most highly reputed translators/translator groups calling it destroy rather than attack (which I believe was what Sleepyfans originally called it), I'll change it. --[[User:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">'''Yyp'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">('''Talk''')</span>]]</sup> 15:15, March 25, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :List of how it was translated by the scan groups: Cnet ([http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/11536], [http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/11741]), Ju-Ni ([http://mangahelpers.com/s/juni/readonline/23399/21], [http://mangahelpers.com/s/juni/readonline/25117/15]) and Franky-House ([http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Franky-House/354/19]) translated it as "Destroy", Maximum 7 as "Avenge" ([http://www.haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Bleach&chapter=Chapter%20355&page=13]), and sleepyfans as "Attack" ([http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-354-page-18.html], [http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-355-page-12.html]). [[User:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">'''Yyp'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">('''Talk''')</span>]]</sup> 21:03, April 12, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I already read the "Release command" discussion, and though I don't check the Ju-Ni or Cnet versions because I'm too lazy to search for them, I know that they are the most reliable sources and stuff, but well... I don't speak Japanese at all, the little I can comprehend from my daily anime comes from self-teaching and stuff, but in most animes, the word "ute" is translated as "Attack" (you know, your usual battlefield with all the army and the commander exclaims "Ute!" usually fansubbed as "Fire!" or "Attack!"). I know it's fansub and fansub is never reliable, so I checked some online translators, I copy-pasted the characters (討て) , and the three of them threw me "attack" as the direct translation (Babylon says "attack, avenge, take revenge, but that's not important), so could we reconsider on this one? Yes, I know Sleepyfans mess up all the time, yes I know Ju-Ni and Cnet are the most reliable translators out there, and I'm aware that we can't really rely on internet translators, but as far as I knew, "ute" does mean "attack", but could we check with Adam Restling, who seems to solve out every trouble with the japanese translations, or any other person who knows anything about translating? Just saying. Attack also seems more related to the Shark concept than Destroy. [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 06:58, March 29, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Uhm... could I get some sort of answer to this? I know the admins are busy and stuff, but I would like to know if there is any possibility of the matter being discussed (even if the discussion above was just closed, yes, I read it) [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 21:47, April 5, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I checked up Tangorin.com, which has been quite a reliable online Eng-Jap/Jap-Eng dicitionary/translator for as long as I have been using it, and while 討つ (the infinitive tense of 討て) does normally occurs in its literal sense of "attack" (and any appropiate synonym thereof), it can also mean "destroy", which is probably a figurative take on its original meaning. Perhaps it is more fitting than the plain "attack" for Harribel's shark theme, considering the relative "destructive" power the larger predatory members (namely the ''great white shark'' and ''tiger shark'') have on their prey. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 00:07, April 6, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I posted my thoughts on this on '''Salubri''''s new Translation page. The link is [[Translation_Corner#Harribel.27s_release_call:_.22Attack.22_or_.22Destroy.22_.3F | here]]. Please forgive any typos and its brevity, as my browser is kind of sluggish right now. I'd've liked to give a more thorough one if I could at the moment. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 05:39, April 6, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | The above was moved from Harribel's talk page as it seemed pointless to have this discussion fragmented in two locations. [[User:Tinni|<span style="color: #DA70D6;">'''Tinni'''</span>]] [[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Tinni|<span style="font-size:95%; font-family: courier new; color: #DA70D6">(Talk)</span>]] 10:00, April 10, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | At '''Salubri''''s suggestion, I leave my thoughts here. But, as some may be unfamiliar with this new page, I'll put a link here in the item on Harribel's talk relating to this. |
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| − | There are many Japanese verbs, with different Kanji and quite easy-to-conflate meanings, that may be read ''utsu''. The one in question here, at least the character, is held to have combined the radical for "word(s)" with "hand/measure," speculated to have been phonetic to express "reproach" and/or "act with care" (Henshall 1998). Perhaps the most ancient meaning, then, was "attack with one's words, defeat in a debate." Today, in Japanese, the most basic and current meaning does seem to be "'''attack'''." Extended and extra meanings, such as "destroy" or "defeat" (whether it be in an argument or by physical force) should, perhaps, be put aside here as additional. "Attack" seems the basic, best form... it even nicely recalls the Japanese in its cadence: at-TACK, (imperative) u-TE. Regardless of the habits of the sharks the weapon took its inspiration from, "attack" also seems good in relation to the quick, savage shots she deals with it. I'd almost have suggested "strike," but that, too, would be straying from the basic meaning a little, and doesn't have the ring ''attack : ute'' I cited above. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 05:34, April 6, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | OK, Thanks for the answer. Attack does make more sense than destroy in my opinion, and I've always seen it used that way. I'm just waiting for the admins to reply to this, since last time I checked they were keepink Destroy as the official release command for Harribel. [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 07:55, April 11, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | There is no doubting that it can mean either. For some reason the reliable, reputed translators thought that Destroy was more appropriate. I dunno. I'll see what others think. Might be worth mentioning in a reference tag. --[[User:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">'''Yyp'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">('''Talk''')</span>]]</sup> 21:09, April 12, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | === Tiburon's technique: La Gota === |
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| − | There is no dispute that the kanji gloss for the technique's name, 戦雫, can be literally translated as "War Drop"/"Drop of War". However, there seems to be also a subtler meaning behind the choice of characters. |
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| − | The kanji [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%88%A6 戦] has an older, traditional form: [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%88%B0 戰], which, while bearing the same meanings as its descendant, is used rarely nowadays outside of historical contexts and feudal-era works. The kanji 戰 itself is classified as a "compound character" – specifically, a "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character_classification#Phono-semantic_compound_characters phono-sematic compound]". Here, the 戰 character's phonetic part is [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%96%AE 單] ("single, individual, lone"), while the semantic part is [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%88%88 戈] ("spear, halberd, lance"); it wouldn't be farfetched to conclude that 戰 originally used to stand for "a single spear". (The character 戰 is also [http://www.kanjinetworks.com/eng/kanji-dictionary/online-kanji-etymology-dictionary.cfm?kanji_id=TAN07 said to have been used to mean "use various weapons to beat one's enemy to death or into submission"].) |
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| − | Now, let us take note of the ''La Gota'' ability itself. Setting aside the shark-tooth similarity for a moment, the [http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/File:Lagota.png general shape of the water blast and, more importantly, the way it is launched] are reminiscent of a launched spear -- or its relative, the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpoon harpoon]. It is thus my belief that the choice of 戦 in the name is less for its commonly used literal meaning, and more for its roots as a compound character – that the name 戦雫 is supposed to be taken figuratively, as "Harpoon Raindrop" (apparently, 雫 does [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%9B%AB#Kanji carry the meaning of "raindrop"]). [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 23:32, April 6, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Well, a ton of Kanji/Hanzi are phono-semantic graphs, so this is not so unique. When a pictogram wouldn't do, e.g. you can draw a tiger, but you can't draw "love"--expressive elements for such abstracts were created and combined in interesting ways to express said abstract principles/feelings etc (as well as to supplement these semantic or "meaning" elements with phonetic or "pronunciation" data), though the exact function of these elements was sometimes lost to history. It'd be like if you used a picture of an eye to write the word "eye." Then say you wanted to write the first-person pronoun word "I." Since it sounds the same as "eye," you could throw the picture of the eye onto the side, diminutive, to express the "sound," with some larger symbol signifying that, though pronounced *like* "eye," the meaning intended in this second graph is "I, me." 戦 and its older forms pretty much stand for "war, battle": the on reading ''sen'' features in ''senso'' "war, warfare," and the kun ''tatakau''/''tatakai'' is frequently found in ''BLEACH'' to refer to characters' battles. The origin of its graphic makeup, i.e. why the character (and so the notion) is written as it is, is interesting, but should probably have little influence on our translation's interpretation. |
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| − | Compare, e.g., the character 天 "heaven, sky." The most ancient forms of this graph show a human shape with an exaggerated disk for a head. Ancient evidence intimates that the original meaning this graph was meant to show, then, was "god" (< "great crowned humanlike"/"humanlike being whose head is raised lofty" ?). The only meaning generally given it in modern Japanese, though, ''is'' "heaven/sky" (the height wherein such a god might dwell, the elevated). So if it's used, must we ponder that it was really meant to mean archaic "big head" or "god"? We cannot do so without more signs from the author about their intent. Currency would suggest, though, we keep it with its ostensible, modern meaning. I fear that going further than maybe a little mention of the graphic history of characters like this, at ''most'', would be to falsely ascribe these ancient notions to their modern meanings, when it seems like, to even the Japanese, something like the graph 戦 basically means just "war/fight(ing)." The common person would likely be ignorant of its archaic developments. Besides, then we'd have to go back and include such "anciently this meant ~" on '''every other character''' of every other name--seems a herculean, and perhaps confounding and ultimately of little value, endeavor. I would reserve such ancient-exploratory entries for harder-to-trans words with more nuance, e.g. ''kami'' or ''Jigoku'' (in ''jigokuchou''). |
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| − | My chief source has it that, in its oldest recorded/recoverable form, the graph was actually '''two''' halberds, later reduced to one and complemented by the radical "simple" you mentioned (as "single"), which itself was originally a bident forked spear; the meaning "unit, simple" apparently came to it for mostly phonetic reasons (i.e. it sounded like a word for "simple"). It seems that after the ancient form of 戦's reduction from two to one halberd, the "simple" radical was re-added to make up for the "halberd" that was lost. A pair of halberds became > "crossed halberds" > "clashing weapons" > "war, fighting (in general)." The actual word the graph was meant to represent in Chinese is said to, likely, be derived from "tremble, fear" (> "fearsome conflict" > "war"), comparable in the passage to Greek ''polemos'' "war" which is said to derive from a root for "tremble, fear" (Schuessler 2007). Note how, in many cases, a '''character''''s phono-semantic development/origin needn't mesh with the '''word it writes''''s phono-semantic development/origin, as here a word likely originally meaning "something to be feared" > "war" is ''written'' with a graph that originally meant "paired halberds." |
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| − | So, with the Spanish '''La Gota''' being "'''the drop'''," and my data cited above for the underlying Kanji, I would say, in all currency, said underlying Kanji, 戦雫 (雫, as '''Marq''' said, being "drop, drip(ping), trickle"), should be retained as "'''war drop'''," with no more esoteric or archaic meanings to be posited without more proof, like form Kubo's specifications. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 10:22, April 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | === Kirikaze the "last Toujuu" name meaning === |
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| − | According to the Japanese credits (though blurry), '''Kirikaze''' seems to be "'''mist wind'''" (霧風). If how you guys described his techniques is correct, it's apt, if semi-blah XD. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 12:04, April 7, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | == Shikai and Bankai == |
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| − | ==="Sode no Shirayuki" mistranslation=== |
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| − | 袖白雪 translates to "Sleeve's White Snow"/"White Snow of the Sleeve". The possessive particle "no" operates backwards in comparison to its English counterpart "of". [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 11:17, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a second opinion on it first. I'll ask Adam Restling if he can confirm this. --[[User:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">'''Yyp'''</span>]] [[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Yyp|<span style="font-size:95%; font-family: courier new; color: #4CC552;">(Talk)</span>]] 11:55, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :Episode 117 translates Sode no Shirayuke to "Sleeve of White Snow." Manga Chapter 201 page 16 translates it to "White Snow's Sleeve." [[User:SerialSniper14|SerialSniper14]] 12:16, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Yeah, but the the anime sub & manga scans are not official translators and have no connection with Kubo/anime staff. We've had this problem with them getting character names wrong before (mostly Arrancar), but I'd be really, really surprised if SnS was mistranslated. What does the Viz version translate it as? Anyway, I asked Adam, so I'll wait until he replies on this. --[[User:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">'''Yyp'''</span>]] [[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Yyp|<span style="font-size:95%; font-family: courier new; color: #4CC552;">(Talk)</span>]] 12:37, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Are you sure the one's responsible for those translations are reliable? Because basic Japanese grammar still strongly disagrees with them. And, Sougyou no Kotowari is of the same structure, and yet it's consistently translated as "Truth of Pisces". Consult any Japanese dictionary, and you'll find that "Sougyou" = "Pisces", and "Kotowari" = "Truth". |
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| − | ::Besides, in every other instance the possessive "no" is ever used elswhere, whether in Bleach or another anime/manga, it's always "Alpha-no-Beta" = "Alpha's Beta". [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 12:41, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I do believe that '''MarqFJA''' is correct. If it <u>was</u> meant to be "sleeve of white snow," it should probably have been ''Shirayuki no Sode''. When the genitive particle ''no'' follows a noun, it is generally used to form this noun into a kind of pseudo-adjective, e.g. a phrase like ''mirai no kuruma'' "future car" (i.e. "car of the future"), where ''mirai'' "future" is a noun, and ''no'' is used to connect it to ''kuruma''. Compare English ''it's a guy thing'' wherein ''guy'' is a noun, but is used as kind of an adjective to qualify ''thing'', i.e. ''it's a guy's (kind of) thing''. |
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| − | Translations as "sleeve of white snow" or synonymous "white snow's sleeve" are errors that are likely due to the apparent oddity of the name's construction, especially for a novice who only knows ''no'' to mean "of": the phrase in English in such a case, "sleeve of white snow," would seem much more plausible than a strange-sounding literal (for a non-specialist) "white snow of sleeve." The latter mistranslation (again, ignoring the other uses of ''no'') would strike the novice as strange and therefore less likely, perhaps skewing into "(Sir) White Snow of Sleeve" knighthood territory. XD |
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| − | So I would translate '''Sode no Shirayuki''' as "'''sleeved white snow'''" (perhaps it refers to the gentle, cloth-like billows of some snowfalls): it is the most grammatically correct. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 13:34, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :Thanks for that. A lot of the zanpakuto names don't make literal sense, so I can understand people getting it wrong. Anyway, I've changed it to "Sleeved White Snow". --[[User:Yyp|<span style="color: #4CC552;">'''Yyp'''</span>]] [[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Yyp|<span style="font-size:95%; font-family: courier new; color: #4CC552;">(Talk)</span>]] 13:47, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | While I agree it makes more sense to an english speaker, we had this discussion re Kazeshini (of course, 'Wind Death') and while I was in favour of listing it in a english-friendly order, Tinni felt it should be translated literally, and not re-jig the order to suit a western reader, so I say 'White Snow of Sleeve' to maintain continuity. TomServo101 13:53, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :I don't think the two cases can be compared. We are talking about linguistics here. You do have to look at each individual case. In the case of Kazeshini, leaving the translation as "wind death" was being closer to the original Japanese then changing it to "Death wind" or "wind of death". In addition, the problem in the case of Kazeshini wasn't that the translation was inaccurate but that it didn't make sense in english. In this case, the translation is inaccurate. [[User:Tinni|<span style="color: #DA70D6;">'''Tinni'''</span>]] [[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Tinni|<span style="font-size:95%; font-family: courier new; color: #DA70D6">(Talk)</span>]] 13:58, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | :Ur misinterpreting what Adam said. The Japanese word ''no'' is not just used as ''of''. Its all explained above as to y '''Sleeved White Snow''' is the best and accurate translation. I also kno of the conversation on Shuheis page, but that was a different translation. [[User:Minato88|<span style="color: #FFD700;">'''Minato'''</span>]][[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Minato88|<span style="font-size:95%; font-family: courier new; color: #FFD700;">(Talk)</span>]] 14:00, January 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Yeah. It's part of the conundrum of ambiguity that occurs not only in Japanese but most languages. Some names, titles etc. retain usage of particles like ''no'' or adjectival endings, but many drop them, and the adjectival or other aspect of the word is only <u>implied</u>. This is the case with ''Shira-'' "white" in ''Shirayuki''. This is an archaic/rarer variant of ''shiro-'' "white," but in actual conversation, "white" as an adjective would be ''shiroi'', and so "white snow" ''<u>shiroi</u> yuki''. However, informally in compounds like names, the adjective ending ''-i'' can be dropped, and the intended adjectival meaning be implied. One could compare this to names like English ''Goodwin'', where the fact that ''good'' is intended in an adjectival aspect, and not as a noun--e.g. something like ''a good (and) a man''. |
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| − | Since the intention, though, is not always clear--even from context--a more literal but still sensible translation is best. Whence I would approve of '''Kazeshini''' as "'''wind death'''" even though it <u>might</u> have been informally meant as "winds- (i.e. ''wind's'') death," or "death of the wind" (note here that, as with Japanese, English constructions with ''of'' can be misleading, too: "death of the wind" can mean "an instance of the wind dying" <u>or</u> "an instance of death brought about by/borne on the wind"!). But '''Sode no Shirayuki''' as "'''sleeved white snow'''" seems to agree more (if not <u>completely</u>) literally with the idioms of the Japanese whom, I daresay, might themselves double-take at an intended literal interpretation as "white snow of sleeve(s)"; at least it gives us a particle to work with! We do what we can in the translation game; the most sensible, faithful and elegant possible is what I would always recommend. If Kubo learns English enough to comment that I'm wrong, I'm all for at last attaining the correct form. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 05:00, January 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | === Ichimaru's Bankai === |
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| − | I haven't been able to find any raws for ch. 399 yet, but from Japanese spoilers I've seen, Ichimaru's Bankai seems to be '''Kamishini no Yari''' (神殺鎗（かみしにのやり）), which I think merely features the kun-readings of the characters of his Zanpakutou's usual name, Shinsou (神鎗) "spirit/kami spear" with the element 殺 "kill" interposed between them. The on (based on older Chinese pronunciation) reading of 神 "spirit, kami" is ''shin'', and the kun (native Japanese pronunciation) reading is ''kami''; for 鎗 "spear, lance," these are ''sou'' and ''yari'' respectively. It's odd that 殺 "kill" is read ''shini'' as though "death" (same as in ''<u>Shini</u>gami''); perhaps Kubo wanted to extra nuance again (the chapter is supposed to be titled "Deicide"). As is usual in the names, the genitive ''no'', though spoken, is omitted from the written Kanji. Hopefully, these are all correct (again, no raws available me easily yet). Since you guys chose, at my suggestion, to translate ''Shinsou'' as "spirit spear/lance," I'd suggest its Bankai be translated similarly as "'''spirit-killing spear/lance'''"; however, because of the semantic broadening and blending of ''shin'' | ''kami'' I described in that earlier post, whether to follow the ch. title's apparent nod and revise both of these from "spirit" > "god" is up to your discretion. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 09:32, April 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | "spear of god/kami-killing" (kanji), or "spear of god/kami's death" (furigana). Those two translations seem essentially synonymous. Perhaps the extra naunce would be that the name basically means "Spear of Deicide" in both possible senses of the latter word. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 14:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | I was just meaning that "kami-death" (''kamishini'') would not implicitly refer to the death ''of'' a ''kami'' (this would be better expressed as ''kami no shi'', though even that would be ambiguous, given the roles of genitive ''no''), but rather referring to a "deific" order or magnitude of death, i.e. "death (so overwhelming as to seem it was wrought by) kami." But, like I said, the forms themselves are ambiguous, but, as you also reiterated, the title "Deicide" points toward the idea of the lance actually being strong enough it could (figuratively) ''slay'' kami itself--though, of course, the Shinigami themselves are not gods, despite how some may ascribe that meaning to their name. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 10:04, April 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | To be fair, an accurate translation of 神 would be "[http://www.kanjinetworks.com/eng/kanji-dictionary/online-kanji-etymology-dictionary.cfm?kanji_id=TAN23 supernatural force that corresponds to unknowable natural phenomenon (such as lightning)]"; that would include both mortal "souls" (whether of dead or living people), "nature spirits" (e.g. fairies, elementals, nymphs), as well as ''bona fide'' "gods" and "demigods"; of course, Western translators are usually oblivious/ignorant of that one simple fact, despite annoyed Japanese linguists reiterating it over and over. |
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| − | On the subject of raws: check [http://mangahelpers.com/m/bleach/raws MangaHelpers]. [[User:MarqFJA|MarqFJA]] 10:41, April 9, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | Yeah. I think I posted (might've been when asked to confirm the translation of ''Shinsou'' itself) about the applications of ''kami'' etc. and how simple "god" is a bit too narrow a translation at times. It is true, though, that the Japanese have been known to translate Western notions of "god, God" with ''kami'', so translators should be forgiven some of these "trepasses," especially since this is the Japanese usage at times. But, in essence, it covers God, god, and the animistic elements you named--much like the Greek ''daimōn'' (before its debasing into forms like English ''demon''), and Latin ''numen'', ''genius''--and even human spirits, as you said. I wrote a little bit more about it [[User_talk:Salubri/Archive_4#Re:_Hey_.28Zanpakutou_names.29 | here]], under the "Shinsou" part. Your post above touches on the origin of the Kanji/Hanzi 神 itself, which in oldest form combines the graphs "altar" and "lightning," (Henshall 1998) sic. "lightning of the altar" > "divine force from heaven" > "spiritual being." Interestingly, one of the words for "lightning" in Japanese, ''kaminari'', is glossed as "call (''nari'') of ''kami''"--lightning was thought to be the "voice of the heavenly," just as in many other world cultures. This also likely explains why the graph 申 itself is today used mostly for "report, speak (to a superior)" (if < "hearken as though to a ''kami''"). |
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| − | The word that 神 writes, though--both in on and kun readings--is more mysterious. On reading ''shin'' was borrowed from probably one of the forms of Middle Chinese (ca. 600-1000 AD). The most ancient Chinese word is said to have been specifically "spirit" (the idea of a "god" was expressed most often by 帝, now mostly translated "emperor," prob. due to its usage by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang Qin Shihuangdi]), and has been linked to Chepang ''glingh'' "a human spirit" (Schuessler 2007). The kun reading ''kami'', though linked in the past to ''kami'' "upper (part)," has been shown unrelated to this latter, as they were spelled differently in Old Japanese. Links to the Ainu word ''kamuy'' "god, (esp. a bear) deity" are interesting, but remain elusive. However, the evolution from "human spirit" to "high spirit (of myriad types)" is no surprise, given the enduring strength of animism and ancestor-deification that abides in Asian cultures. If it were up to me, I'd probably leave ''kami'' itself untranslated, and give a richer exposition (like the above) in some kind of "Notes" area for guidance to its use. But when Aizen speaks of not even ''kami'' sitting in heaven and Kubo writes titles like "Deicide," it's hard to know whether the narrower interpretation "god" is more apt here after all--though these are highly suggestive. [[User:Adam Restling|Adam Restling]] 09:48, April 10, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | ==Spanish== |
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| − | ===Espada Numbers=== |
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| − | {{Discussion Closed| result=The numbers are spanish}} |
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| − | I was sure that Noveno/Octava..... were Espagnol numbers, and when I looked on some web-translator, it says the same thing... |
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| − | :Then it's a bad translator. The Spanish numbers are: cero, uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco, seis, siete, ocho, nueve, diez (0-10). I don't take Italian, but Octava, Noveno, etc. sound about right.[[User:LapisScarab|LapisScarab]] 23:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)LapisScarab |
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| − | Yes, spanish number, sorry for bad saying, was talking about "1st", "9th"....(note: The translator is [http://www.wordreference.com/ Wordreference]), and when I try "8", it gives me "Ocho", but 8th give me Octovo/a, same for 9... [[User:Mili-Cien|Mili-Cien]] |
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| − | :Hmm, that might be right. We haven't learned much on "first", "second", "third", etc. I know that "first" in Spanish is "primero," but I don't really know 6th-9th. [[User:LapisScarab|LapisScarab]] 03:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | Until prove that is wrong, I remove this part from Trivia, just letting the "Dies" [[User:Mili-Cien|Mili-Cien]] |
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| − | :I checked, you were right. All the titles are Spanish for the ordinals of the Espada's ranks. Primero=1st, Segundo=2nd, Tercero=3rd, Cuarta=4th, Quinto=5th, Sexta=6th, Septima=7th, Octava=8th, Noveno=9th, Décimo=10th. I'll fix it up. [[User:LapisScarab|LapisScarab]] 02:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Stark has claimed to be the Primera not Primero. It may just be a translation error, but all translations I've seen have Primera rather than Primero. Just thought to mention that :) [[User:Revan46|Revan46]] 14:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | God all you people need to take a spanish class. the whole Primera/primero thing doesnt matter because they are all gramatically correct. the endiong simply tells if the noun is feminine/masculine. the ordianal number sytem works the same. 1-10 is a different word than 1st-10th. Diez= 10 decimo=10th |
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| − | ::Its is just a translation error, And if the translations get mixed up, We could just simply tell what number they are by looking at the great big fecking tattoo and their bodies xD |
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| − | :To the ma that feels superiors than others, I'll just say that he needs to take gender lesson, stark introduced himself as Primera because sword(=espada) is a feminine word, and so, primero is wrong in this case, except if you consider that sword is a masculine word. Also about Yammy, you just said what we found out month ago.{{User:Mili-Cien/sig}} |
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| − | ::Just for the record, I was only saying that Mili-Cien was right earlier and that the Espada titles were all Spanish, not Spanish and Italian. I wasn't saying what the titles ''were''. Also, I put that ''well'' before Stark revealed his rank; Primer'''a''' is correct. [[User:LapisScarab|LapisScarab]] 05:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :I'm sorry, this is absolutely out of the question, but I had to say it. It is so FUNNY to see how English speakers have trouble with the whole Arrancar thing because of the Spanish. I'm a native Spanish speaker, so I find it quite natural to know the meanings of the words and zanpakutohs, and the different endings for masculine and feminine words. But I've seen non-Spanish speakers struggling so badly with this kind of stuff. I'm sorry, it just makes me laugh a lot. But about the italian, I remember that Yylfordte introduced themselves in a more... italian-like way. Or at least that's what I remember... he said "Quindecimo" or something like that? Because the Spanish would be "Decimoquinto". But I don't remember which episode it was [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 02:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :You could help explain it instead of laughing at them.--[[User:Licourtrix|Licourtrix]] 05:26, September 16, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :Ok, for people who don't understand why it is "Primera" "Segunda" even for the male ones (you'd think it would be primero, segundo"), it's because the adjective is referring to the noun Espada, which is feminine. So..it's gramatically correct. It would be incorrect to call Stark "el primero espada" or barragan "segundo espada". [[User:Chaosbringer127|The End]] 01:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Yet, Ulquiorra introduced himself as Cuatro Espada (literally "Four Sword") rather than Cuarta. And I think Nnoitra introduced himself as Quinto instead of Quinta, but I'm not sure about that one. [[User:Lia Schiffer|Lia Schiffer]] 07:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :::Indeed, Nnoitra is the Quinto Espada. Both him and Aaroneiro take the masculine forms - Quinto/Noveno - while the rest take the feminine with suffix "a". - [[User:HuecoMuffin|HuecoMuffin]] 13:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | Am I correct in assuming it's that Arrancar's choice in whether to use the masculine or feminine form for their rank? I sort of help introduce people to Bleach locally so it'd help if i can explain this if someone asks. |
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| − | ===espadas=== |
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| − | {{Discussion Closed| result=The Espada's numbers shall remain the way they are }} |
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| − | the male member of the espada should call themselves in rank in the masculine form while the female members should |
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| − | refer to their rank in the feminine |
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| − | example |
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| − | *Tercera |
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| − | *sexto |
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| − | *cuarto |
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| − | ulquiorra is one of the few that say it correctly,{{Unsigned|Shiny-gami|21:16, December 16, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | All of the Espada refereed to themselves in the feminine term. Exceptions are:Ulquiorra, Aaroniero. Still, I don't see Y people keep bringing this up. It is so insignificant. [[User:Lia Schiffer]] speaks spanish and she said it was hilarious that people here keep bringing this up like it reall matters. I am marking this Discussion closed as it doesn't matter. We have them listed as they introduced themselves and '''it stays that way, PERIOD'''. [[User:Minato88|<span style="color: #FFD700;">'''Minato'''</span>]][[w:c:Bleach:User talk:Minato88|<span style="font-size:95%; font-family: courier new; color: #FFD700;">(Talk)</span>]] 21:28, December 16, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | i didn't ask to change as i know that the this wikia uses the from spoken by the espada i was just saying that it should be noted in the article if it's not noted yet. as i did a small redundant trivia merge explaining that[[User:Shiny-gami|Shiny-gami]] 21:55, December 16, 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | The spanish skills of the Espada or Kubo for that matter are borderline junk trivia. [[User:Tinni|Tinni]] 22:04, December 16, 2009 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 08:40, 25 April 2010
The Translation Corner is a place where a group of users can get together and help maintain the wiki by keeping it up to date on the actual translations of the various names, abilities, techniques and etc. found in the Bleach Universe.
Associate Members
- Adam Restling (Japanese)
- MarqFJA (Japanese)
- Lia Schiffer (Spanish)
References & Sources
- Manga Raws: MangaHelpers
- Kanji-to-English: